Six Four Three

02 Nov 2009 19:13:25

I fully agree with everything you have said. I have been absolutely disgusted the past two years with the way Halloween is celebrated on campus. I see girls dressed "as consent", as one friend says, and it saddens me to see the way girls disrespect their bodies, if only for this one night. Since coming to college I have chosen to no longer celebrate Halloween by dressing up and going out. Instead I stay inside with fellow christians and we enjoy each others company over popcorn, candy, and a silly halloween movie. I fear the things that happen on campus, not just on Halloween, and stay as far away as i can so that i do not fall into sin as well.
I hope that something changes soon or else the holiday will have lost all the magic and joy that it once had.

02 Nov 2009 19:30:08

I would argue that woman dress that way because Halloween is one of the few times women are "free" to express their sexuality. On that day, they are permitted to dress provocatively, and are encouraged to do so. Perhaps if the church didn't send so many mixed messages to women about their bodies and their sexuality, they wouldn't feel the desire to dress so extremely on Halloween.

I would encourage you to think about the messages you send to your daughter as a pastor: That inherently their bodies cause another to sin. That they should consider all their sexual thoughts sin until they are married. These messages are sent with good intentions, but they aren't exactly accurate and have long term devastating effects.

Bottom line is that Halloween costumes are a tip of an iceberg that you are seeing.

02 Nov 2009 20:13:12

Jamie,
I would ask of you, what are the mixed messages that the church has given you? And have you researched them and brought them to the leaders of the church?

02 Nov 2009 20:41:59

Yes, I agree. As a Christian guy I've noticed the "more provocative/slutty dress" by the ladies on Halloween over the last few years. As a guy who doesn't have the "gift of singleness" and I'm half Italian, I decided to stay away from the Halloween parties this year. You know what they say, "If you are trying not to eat the cookies, don't hang out in the cookie store".

02 Nov 2009 20:48:52

Brad, here's a link to an interesting blog post regarding what I am referring to: http://www.magpie-girl.com/...
You may not agree with the conclusion to which the blogger arrives, but the examples she gives are common stories women receive in churches. The comments that follow her post are interesting as well.
If you really are interested in what women hear in church, ask around and be really open. Some women are totally fine, but many are not. And many have already left.
No, I have not "brought them to the leaders of the church" for several reasons. First and foremost, I grew up in church. Most of the lessons regarding sexuality are taught in jr high and high school, and I wouldn't even know where to find those pastors. Secondly, many pastors are so rarely open to hearing criticism to what they have spoken. After all, they are preaching what they think God wants them to preach. And thirdly, most pastors won't even meet with a woman without another person present-which sends a clear message to her that she is dangerous.
I hope that you can hear what I am trying to communicate. Not judgment, but that there is a real underlying problem to the idea that women are dressing provocatively at halloween because they just really haven't thought it through scripturally.

03 Nov 2009 05:17:59

I completely concur with Justin. And I bring my position and belief as a "first generation" Christian. I wasn't raised in any arena of Biblical Christianity, let alone Biblical thought. I now am a Mom to two daughters and two sons. As one who fully walked most of my growing up in the world, free of any consideration of what blessed my Father's heart and brought Him glory, I see purity as a heart issue, a gift, and a place of absolute freedom. Obedience could easily be added into that mix, but that ranks as a secondary late effect of His cleansing and restoration in my life.
As one who is wildly loved, generously guarded, unflinchingly protected, and unabashedly upheld by Jesus Christ, the one who died to protect my purity, I talk through our hearts and our inner thoughts (pure, defiled, and otherwise) everyday, not just with myself, but with each of my children. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. I want to see God! I desperately want my children to see God! True freedom is living in the midst of what we were designed and created to be; it's not imposed upon us; purity is something we RUN to, as the alternative pales and wounds, when viewed in the truth of His glorious light.

03 Nov 2009 10:05:29

PS I dressed as an Amish lady named Sarah for Halloween. Is that overreactive? KIDDING!!! I simply went as a hot-chocolate guzzling, picture-taking, porch-sitting, chili-consuming, costume-complimenting Mama! And it was so fun!

03 Nov 2009 10:25:49

Justin is much more gracious than I... I would venture to say that there is a correlation within the thought process here that says "the less clothes I wear, the more attention I get".

Why else would you be a "slutty" version of anything?

On some level this does not make people less "godly" for wanting such attention it just gives a brief glimpse into where our comfort comes from. There is a discomfort knowing that you won't be the girl who gets hit on because your legs are covered, so 'because you can' you go without the leggings...

This obviously doesn't go for everyone, just the majority... I think.

And to Jamie, I agree with you... to an extent. Scripture and the implications of the Gospel have to be our motivation and that shouldn't waiver because of the occasion. However, being someone who did not grow up in the church necessarily I would agree that the signals given to men and women are backwards most of the time. Men are the feminine ones in the church and women are the spiritual leaders in the home... this is awfully backwards! I believe this is why we must cling to the scriptures and not so tightly to the opinion of "man"; our opinions and stances are so finicky and there is no inconsistency within the messages and words of the Bible.

In regards to your comment about women being "dangerous"... Unfortunately we must sometimes safeguard situations due to the fault of another. Many Christian men [and pastors] have been entangled by infidelity which keeps the public with an extremely observant and judgmental eye. It is not that women are dangerous [most of the time] it is that the mans first responsibility is to protect his family and as a pastor that no one would be able to make false claims about him.

I would encourage you Jamie, do not run away from the church or throw up your middle finger to the institution because of its inconsistencies, rather, be willing to use your voice to create conversation and as Ghandi would say, "be the change that you want to see".

L!VELOVE

03 Nov 2009 11:56:18

Honestly, I am a little unnerved by the fifth paragraph. I can totally understand where Jamie is coming from.

People should obviously dress respectfully, even on a night when society is more accepting of sexuality. They should so for themselves, not society, not men, not anyone. I do no believe that women necessarily have a responsibility to men to dress a certain way. If I sin, I pay the price, that's my sole responsibility. A person can overly sexualize an ankle the same way they can sexualize a breast. Cultures with more conservative dress don’t magically have fewer problems with sexuality. As a matter of fact, one could argue the opposite.

I am glad to say I didn't see any promiscuous pictures from Praxis members on Facebook. I believe you that they there were some; we have a young and diverse congregation. I fear parts of this post border on blaming one person for someone else's sin and I don't agree with that.

03 Nov 2009 12:08:04

Great post! My friends and I were actually having the same conversation this week.

We being created in God's image are image bearers of an invisible God. As Christians we should never this lightly. How we dress daily (not 364 days a year) should reflect who God is.

Ladies let me be clear, for me, and I sure other guys will attest to this, there is nothing sexier than a moderately dressed woman. If you do this I guarantee you will stick out in a Christian guy's mind and you will start attracting the right guys.

03 Nov 2009 12:26:58

David, I can see how that 5th paragraph can be interpreted as shifting blame for all sexual sin to woman but I don't believe that is what was meant by it. I think what Justin was referring to was lust.

Matthew 5:27-28 27 says: You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

True, any man who lusts after a woman whether partially or fully clothed is fully responsible for their thoughts. However, girls should be aware that it doesn't take much for a guy to struggle with lust and dress in a way that is both sensitive to this sin issue and is God-honoring.

03 Nov 2009 12:28:55

I think we ought to handle this situation based on Jesus' example found in John 8 wherein he deals with a prostitute the Jews are prepared to stone.

The Jews drag the prostitute out into public, make a spectacle of her, and condemn her behavior. In this article you have likewise brought these women into public, made a spectacle of them, and condemned their behavior. Many of the women who dressed inappropriately probably read your article and felt guilt and shame; it probably assisted cycles of insecurity and issues regarding self-worth.

Jesus was much more concerned with the personhood of the prostitute over and above her behavior. In fact, he physically, and dangerously steps in (not just in word) to defend her, even as the accusers seek to destroy him as well. Ultimately, before Jesus says anything about her behavior, he ties his own fate to hers.

Jesus was not at all passive about sinful behaviors, but they were hardly His "pastoral" focal point. When you "pastor" women like Jesus did, then I think you will end up seeing behavioral life-change. You approach issues caring more for the people than just their behaviors, and I think that sense will pervade your teaching. But your hands seemed to only carry stones...

03 Nov 2009 12:29:42

Great discussion everyone!

As a female, Jamie, I too have interacted with churches in the past where the view of women have left me feeling at fault for the sins of others, not as an individual, but simply because Im a woman. Its times like these, however, that I have to remind myself that these churches are made up of humans, with human hearts and human egos and human mistakes. Just like me.

I believe you are right in saying Halloween costumes are a tip of the iceberg. If we are on the same page, it points to a deeper longing and insecurity that, frankly, all of us girls possess. We want to be longed for. We want to know that we have captivated the attention of the people around us and that our beauty is something to behold. All too often that is cheapened, and we are left wanting.

As for women being "'free' to express their sexuality", we are always free to do so. I happen to express mine through modesty and abstinence--not simply because my church encourages this behavior, but because it is pleasing to God. He desires our purity, physically and mentally. He craves for us to worship Him in all areas of our life! God is not simply concerned with what we are obedient to in life. He wants that adventurous relationship with us! He created us for that relationship! (Excuse my excitement. I often forget this and so I'm partly talking to myself as well...)

I'll end with 3 things, Jamie...

1) Trust in God's word. I've found in my life that when I'm hurt by or doubting the actions of the church or a pastor, I need to be running to God's word. His word is never wrong.

2) If you can't find those people in your past who left you with questions, go to the people in your life now. Express your concern to them. I don't know Justin super well, but the impression I get from him is he would be open to talking through stuff with the people at Praxis.

3) Libby put it so perfectly when she began, "As one who is wildly loved, generously guarded, unflinchingly protected, and unabashedly upheld by Jesus Christ, the one who died to protect my purity..." Fill in your own last part. She uses the love from the Father to express God's love and the dangers of the world to her children. What will you do with God's love?

Justin, thank you for writing so boldly. I will be praying for your role in our lives and that conviction and boldness to the heart of God never fades. I'll also be praying for you as a daddy. Your daughter so desperately needs to hear those words, and to know she is celebrated for who she is. Thanks again!

Abby :)

03 Nov 2009 12:53:19

I am no longer a part of Praxis (now living in Boulder, CO), but I feel this conversation is worth discussing.

I had the opportunity this Halloween to speak with a number of women who previously dressed "sexy" but chose this year to wear creative, comfortable, and far more conservative outfits (myself included). Consensus from all the women was that the emphasis on their bodies in years prior was a burden. They felt self-conscious and uncomfortable wearing such little clothing. They felt on display as objects. Though at the time it felt nice to have attention, they realized it was for all the wrong reasons and left a feeling of emptiness.

This year, these same women expressed incredible freedom and joy in dressing in creative rather than provocative costumes. They enjoyed themselves in a way that felt honoring to their bodies and their Lord. What a great experience!

Why is it that we consider God's desire for us so limiting? Time and again, I've found more freedom in His way than in my own. God gave us our bodies and sexuality and designed a perfect plan for how to use them. Slutty costumes weren't what He had in mind. And if that is all we as women have with respect to opportunities to express our femininity, what a sad world. Fortunately, that's a false, worldly perspective. And to truly uncover what God wants for women, there is more freedom, fulfillment, love, and satisfaction than could ever be experienced through the attention and lust of men on Halloween.

I love Halloween. I love dressing up. I will continue to do so. But my identity is in God and therefore I have the freedom to dress in a honoring way to Him and not be concerned with what men think of my body.

That said, andrew has a great point, but the piece that is missing is the fact that this whole discussion is out of concern for Justin's flock. Behavior can often reflect the condition of the heart. I believe that Justin is providing excellent pastoral care by reflecting on the potential problems Halloween may have on the hearts of both women and men and calling them to guard their hearts against sin.

03 Nov 2009 13:01:36

Justin isn't out to govern a woman's sexual expression. He just wants to know that when a girl decides a dominatrix costume is what she's going with, that she arrived at that conclusion considering the gospel and the responsibilities it commands of us.

Personally, I could dress as a sumo wrestler in a burka and my sexiness would still not be fully contained, but imagine the sin I'd cause if I dressed as Donny Osmond or the Fonz. These are tough choices I have to make every Halloween, but I do it for the good of humanity.

03 Nov 2009 13:10:22

This is a fabulous discussion!

Thank you, gentlemen for wrestling with this topic in an honest, humble, and engaging way. And thank you ladies for sharing your perspectives...I love hearing female voices on the topic of (Christian) sexuality. I too was raised in a church that sent both subtle and clear messages to girls that they were responsible for remaining pure- and responsible for "keeping" their male counterparts pure. This responsiblity was coupled with a complete lack of power in relationships and in the church. I am now a part of a great church, and am not as angry about it as I used to be. : )

I completely agree with Justin's overall message here, that we must "preach the Gospel, not with a bull horn on a street corner, but by embodying things that are true, honorable...and worthy of praise" on Halloween... and for this holiday, the burden primarly falls on us ladies (as I thankfully don't see many men dressed as Victoria's Secret angels). I also think that we must continually seek ways to preach the gospel as Jesus did in his interaction with the prostitute (thanks for using this example, andrewschey). Women continue to remain powerless in so many ways in our culture, and when we look past the sexy costumes (worn on Halloween or any other day of the year) long enough to come near and stand beside these women, we learn that their costumes are masking the scars of domestic violence, rape, abuse (yes, even church-going women), and decades lived without an identity they are comfortable with. From the sound of it, each of you who have responded to this blog post are among those who are willing to stand up and stand beside them.

03 Nov 2009 13:15:23

I never would have thought this would be such a controversial issue! Im a little shocked that people are so offended by this to be honest. I think the point is this. You are responsible for yourself and nobody else. Now that is not to say you cant be held responsible for someone elses sin, because scripture clearly states that a person can cause sin in someone else. So when it comes to an issue like this, a woman should put a great deal of thought into why they choose the costume they choose. If your intent is to stimulate sexual attraction in men, or you cant clearly define your intentions, maybe its time to rethink your costume selection. As a godly single man, a woman whose purpose is to incite sexual attraction through her clothing choice is actually offensive to me. To me it is something of an affront to my intelligence. A girl who puts thought into her costume and wears something stylish or clever is infinitely more attractive than one whose costume shows an absence of mental activity.

So in conclusion, our society says you have every right to wear what you want, and I completely agree. In fact in some ways I prefer it, since it clearly points out the girls to stay away from. In the end you just have to ask yourself, "do I want a guy whos attracted to my body and nothing else, or do I want a guy who is attracted to me because of my intelligence, and my devotion to God?"

I would like to know though, where this idea of expressing your sexuality comes from. If you say Jamie, that Halloween is an opportunity for women to express their sexuality, then explain to me how as a Christian man in keeping with scripture I can express my sexuality. I really don't think this is possible and I doubt that it can be justified for either men or women biblically.

And as a final thought, I do believe that a woman should dress in a way that expresses her beauty. I just think that her clothing should represent her inner beauty by letting her clothing style be an outward expression of her personality, rather than letting it enhance her outward beauty by simply wearing tight or revealing clothing.

03 Nov 2009 13:41:33

MattKnox:

Your response highlights a great divide in how Christians address sins in "sinners." I place "sinners" in quotes, because though you believe (in your own words) that you are "godly,"--we are all sinners.

To equate a woman who dresses erotically with "an absence of mental activity" is a gross judgment. It makes me wonder why Jesus spent so much of His time in conversation with these "sinners." Actually, this post makes it quite clear why He did.

Khickle has shed light on the multi-dimensional nature of sin. Jesus, as I argued before, did not shy away from condemning these sinful actions, but that can hardly be argued as the primary focus of His ministry.

If we continue to be personally "offended" by sin, as if sin were a personal affront to us (remember sin is an affront to God) we will find ourselves further and further from the people who actively engage in sin. At the same time we will drift further and further from a true conception of self, believing a lie that somehow we are not sinners. We will become hard-hearted to the world and unable to help people emerge from self-destructive habits. We will be participating in a self-destructive habit--condemnation.

03 Nov 2009 13:47:56

After thinking about it, I would like to take a quick moment to point out that men can have a similar problem on Halloween. We can become wrapped up in making sure the costume is the funniest or the coolest or the most outrageous when we should just view it as another opportunity to serve God. A man should be just as concerned with his intentions in selecting a costume as a woman. Is he choosing his costume because he wants attention and for people to notice him or as a way to please God.

03 Nov 2009 14:12:21

**OK so I started writing this response at 1:45 and had to go into a meeting until 3:15 and the comments have piled up on me. So if you wrote after RHealy in comment 11, I will get to you!**

Wow great comments everyone, I figured this might strike some controversy. Perhaps I can respond and answer some questions.

@mrojas and bjwilson: I'm not sure avoiding the scene altogether is a sound plan to be honest. It seems as if you are running away from the sinful world to simply insulate yourself from it. This was not the plan of Jesus or the disciples and should not be our plan either. Certainly if you know that a particular situation might lead you towards sin, then avoiding it for a time can be wise. But in general it is the Christian's calling to be an agent of redemption whenever possible. We are told by Jesus to be salt and light to the world, to be the city on a hill. This was really my central point, that Halloween creates an environment, perhaps more than any other day, for us to be that City on a Hill, to be the people of God in a distinct way that will show the world how God made them to be.

@Libby I think your Amish costume is perfect! I love the UPS idea and that golf cart looks familiar...

@dennisgable You are right on, this is a Gospel issue. The way we dress every single day, but especially on a day like this, speaks volumes about who we want to like us, accept us and give us value. Men and women both deal with this issue, and it extends beyond clothes to overall style, speech and lifestyle.

@davidhildreth I have to disagree with you on a few points. You said that people should dress respectfully but, "should do so for themselves, not society, not men, not anyone." People should care deeply about how they steward their bodies because of the one that gave them their bodies. We should care for our bodies because Christ does and did enough to die for us. Im not sure what "doing it for themselves" accomplishes exactly, in fact I think that ends up as self-serving and self-glorifying. People living for themselves is not a solution, its a problem.

I really shouldn't have added parts of the 5th paragraph, not because it's wrong, but because distracts from the point. If you remember a few weeks ago, we talked about this issue in Mark 9:42-48 where Jesus makes it very clear that when things outside of ourselves cause us to sin, that we should eradicate those things. He is very clear that people can cause other people to sin, even to the point of laying down consequences for such a thing in v. 42 saying, "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea." I would not be so quick to eliminate any outside causes for your sin, it may seem like you are taking responsibility (which is good) but you may simply be blind to those things around you that Jesus says are "causing you to sin".

But, that was not at all my point in writing this post. My point was that Halloween represents a unique opportunity for Christians to stand out and by being intentionally Gospel conscious with their decisions. It would take very little to alter a costume to be more God glorifying but it could speak volumes about how Jesus views human sexuality and celebration. My point was that this was an opportunity missed but that today represents a new opportunity to live out those differences once again.

03 Nov 2009 14:12:49

@Jamie Thank you so much for being willing to post so honestly here, I appreciate your perspective. I need to clarify some of my words, add some more thoughts and push back a bit.

First of all, as I said to David, this post was not about women's bodies causing men to sin. That is a subject for another day so I will only mention something briefly. You said that women's bodies aren't dangerous, and I have to disagree, not because women's bodies are particularly dangerous but because everything that can be used for evil intent or to accomplish one's selfish desires is inherently dangerous. Everything around us represents an opportunity to misuse or abuse that thing to a destructive end.

Second, you said that halloween is a day that women are free to "express themselves sexually". I'm not at all sure what you mean by this or how that might play out. I don't know you so I have no idea if you are a Christian or not so please forgive me if I don't completely understand where you are coming from. A woman's sexuality was given to her by God for the purposes of great joy and satisfaction in marriage with her husband and in so doing glorifying God. For a woman to use her sexuality for other purposes, which I won't even guess at, is probably not a God glorifying idea and completely misses God's ideal for you.

I read the article that you linked to and am saddened by the stories told by the author. I can't imagine how horrified those young girls must have been to be brought up to the front of the class and likened to a dirty toothbrush. That is despicable and, as the study showed, not effective. I'm sure it's ineffectiveness is due to a number of things but the one that sticks out is that the government has no authoritative moral or ethical framework from which to call people to abstinence. They can arrive at the proper moral law by logic or tradition but without the spiritual framework, it devolves into pragmatism. Scripture presents a much fuller, more robust and meaningful case for abstinence before marriage.

God created us male and female, unique and yet intertwined. He created us for His glory and our pleasure. He created sexual intimacy as something to be explored and enjoyed by a man and a woman that have entered into an eternal covenant. In fact, even the act of sexual intimacy itself is part of the covenant, it is the sealing of the covenant by blood. It was created by God to be such a beautiful and healing event so as to make it far too important and special to be misused for personal gain or the constant pursuit of temporal, carnal pleasure.

Jamie, I don't know where you are coming from on any of this stuff and I fear that pain in your past has shaped you in ways you may not even realize but I want you to know that God deeply loves you and wants the best for you. He created this world to be enjoyed and experienced in a certain way, they way he designed it to be used. I hope you can see past the petty, silly but often dangerous mistakes that humans make when it comes to sexuality and embrace the Creator of sexuality's purpose in creation.

03 Nov 2009 14:13:52

andrewschey

I completely agree with you. I was not trying to say that I am "godly" in the way you took it, simply that I am a follower of God, since a christian has God in them and is therefore "like God" in a way.

I don't understand how you can wonder why Jesus would spend so much of His time with "sinners" though, simply through what I said. I was trying to say that choosing clothing that is physically appealing doesnt require much thought, in the same way as it is easier for a guy to get a girl to sleep with him than to actually have a meaningful relationship with her. Not that they are all brain dead or not worth associating with.

As to being offended by sin, it is not so much that I am offended by the sin itself, but by the fact that I can only find myself attracted to a girl wearing skimpy clothing if I ignore my intellectual and spiritual side, which is I believe the intent. This offends me as a man, not personally, simply because it assumes that all men care about is sex, which may be true for some men but certainly not all of us.

As for condemnation, you are correct that we should never condemn an individual. Speaking against a widespread practice is another thing altogether. I have no problem speaking against immodest clothing just as I have no problem speaking against my own sins.

I apologize to anyone who thought I was being judgemental, that was not my intent in any way.

03 Nov 2009 14:36:57

andrewschey:

Where your original point falls short is that Pastor Justin was not addressing an unregenerated (by the gospel and the Holy Spirit) prostitute, he was addressing his flock and those who claim the name of Christ.

Jesus sets a powerful example of how to deal with a lost sinner living in sin...protect, call them to repent (go away and sin no more), forgive and redeem. Such should be our actions as christians to non-christians.

However, imagine if Jesus had caught Mary, Martha, etc engaging in the same behavior? Would he follow the same pattern displayed in John 8 - Of course! BUT would he also hold them to a higher standard, as those who know the Christ and the truth of his Gospel? Certainly so!

With the saving knowledge of the gospel and God's redeeming grace should come the repentant heart that thinks differently about our bodies, how we celebrate and how our actions large and small affect our relationship with Jesus.

To equate the prostitutes Jesus dealt with to the women in this church is a back-handed defense.

Though I don't know Justin personally, I find it grossly unfair to say his hands only beared stones. His tone and flow of speech did not indicate a vindictive, ranting spirt, and you do not fully see the extent he serves, protects and ministers to the women in His church. Rather, this is a fair and correct call for women who know Jesus to honor the One who makes the prostitute as white as snow.

Respectfully....

03 Nov 2009 14:42:43

@reformme
you wrote my response... thanks.

03 Nov 2009 14:51:14

With this third comment, I think I may be overstaying my welcome. Justifiably so--so let me make this quick:

Considering that Christians and even non-believers happen across articles like this on a daily basis (repostings on facebook, twitter, and the like)--did this article embody a Christ-like approach to sin? I explained my opinion that it did not "seem" that way. I felt that it seemed opposed.

My comment was not a holistic examination. I simply happened upon this post, and taken as it is written, I offered my opinion and reflections.

03 Nov 2009 17:53:29

Thank you for this blog, it's the first one I've read since I just started coming to Praxis and it just really hit home.
The timing couldn't have been better. A friend and I were talking yesterday about how our group of friends acted around halloween and it saddens me that we are all professing christians and yet anyone who would have seen our group wouldn't be able to tell the difference between us and anyone else that was a part of the world. Even more convicting is that some of us are part of a bible study group together and we have invited people to join our study that saw us on halloween and I am sure that this has hurt our witness.
I know it is not easy to be the party pooper so to speak when everyone seems to be having "fun". But you have offered us so much to talk about that is supporting our being convicted about our attitudes toward halloween and how we present ourselves as Christians.
Thank you.

03 Nov 2009 18:26:11

@Pastor Justin

I guess I'm not sure exactly what I meant by doing it "for themselves", I certainly didn't meant to cut God out of the equation. I'm just not comfortable with someone's sin being blamed on someone else. Thanks for the clarification of what you meant in the fifth paragraph.

04 Nov 2009 07:16:43

Is not Halloween to the glory of Satan? Why expect anything less?

04 Nov 2009 07:50:26

No Jenn, it really isn't. It's to the glory of the Mars and Hershey corporations, as well as the American Dental Association.

04 Nov 2009 11:37:27

From response #20 to Justin,

Excellent point on being salt and light. I was not intending to imply staying away from all Halloween parties or taking myself out of society. In individual situations there is a time to be salt and light and a time to flee. (i.e. Joseph didn't hang around and talk with Potiphars wife and counsel her, but Jesus also broke the mold and spoke with the "woman at the well") An application of wisdom is needed in all the situations we encounter. That's what makes a "relationship" with God so important as I can't turn to page 526 in the bible and see what it says about Halloween parties :)
Thanks again for the great discussion.